A number of folks have been asking where they get the audio of this morning’s Jay Weber show where he tried to address my claims that he and County Exec. Walker have been misrepresenting the facts regarding the sales tax referendum. (You can find that post here.)
While the audio is available on Jay Weber’s website, it disappears after a day, so I’ve made it available here. Listen below.
[audio:weber-sales-tax-oct-20.mp3]
His show this morning and the points he’s attempting to make seem to be based from this post he wrote over the weekend at “The Right View”. While it’s a passionate response, it is really just repeating the same kind of misrepresentation of the sales tax referendum that I called him and Scott Walker out on originally. “Your taxes will go up despite the facts!”
Two things of interest: One point he makes is that no one is going to shop in Milwaukee County anymore for big ticket items like TVs or sofas because, to paraphrase, “The county line is only a 15 minute drive from anywhere in Milwaukee.”. His point is that fuel costs won’t be an issue because the Milwaukee County line (and a $10 reduction in price on a $1000 TV) would be just 15 minutes away.
This is a really clever statement for him to make, because it’s true that you can cross the border of Milwaukee County from nearly anywhere within it in a reasonable amount of time, 15-25 minutes depending where you’re at. What he fails to mention is that simply crossing over the County Line doesn’t mean there’s a Best Buy, Circuit City, Steinhaffles, or any other big retailer waiting on the other side. The closest Best Buy/Circuit City that I’m aware of for our $1000 TV outside of Milwaukee County are out on Bluemound in Brookfield, hardly easy or enjoyable to get to. Same for furniture stores… all the big ones for our $500 sofa are just as far out if not farther.
That’s why I made the point that it’s not just a quick jaunt out to the County Line to save the $5-$15 dollars in sales taxes on even big ticket items like TVs.
Secondly, I made the point about how if Mr. Weber and Mr. Walker were correct about this “tax island” theory of theirs, every other city in the nation with a higher sales tax than it’s surrounding communities would be void of the Best Buys and furniture stores, and that’s just not the case.
To sum up, Jay’s post and his show this morning are good examples of how he, other AM talk radio show hosts, and especially our County Executive continue to spread misinformation and confusion about this important referendum even as they attempt to defend themselves from doing so.
I live in the Washington Heights neighborhood of Milwaukee, WI with my wife Jen, our daughter Emerson, and son Carter.
Dan, your assertion that people will not travel to neighboring counties is probably true, the problem is you still haven’t addressed the other issues that were brought up by Weber, and comments/questions I put forth regarding the ramification of raising the sales tax. One, what guarantees are there that this supposed property tax relief will be in effect throughout the life of the sales tax increase? Also, are you willing to institute the most regressive tax out there (sales tax) on the poor in this county? The reason I ask is because it WILL affect them. It may not be in gasoline, groceries, or medication, but it most certainly will when they decide to buy EVERYTHING else (not to mention they are the group most likely to NOT shop outside the county, so they’re almost guaranteed to pay this tax). The worst part about that little “issue” is they are not going to gain the “proposed” property tax relief that’s being bandied about…..Nothing like getting hit in the stomach – TWICE!
Dan,
I live FOUR(4) blocks from 124th Street. I can be in Waukesha Co. in a minute (a little longer if I walk). So shopping in the Brookfield Sq./Bluemound area can become more attractive than shopping in Mayfair Mall/Hwy 100 if the cost justifies it. This is a decision other residents of Milwaukee Co. will have to make, obviously some will elect to pay the extra sales tax, but others will cross the border.
Being on a pension, any sales tax increase affects me directly. Perhaps I’ll cut back on Milwaukee restautant meals, maybe I’ll buy fewer items of clothing (or buy them in Brookfield Sq.). Not spending money in Milwaukee could become a virtue, especially when I have other options (and the price of gasoline is down).
But, let’s face it, Milwaukee’s (and Wisconsin’s) record on keeping taxes in check is not good. My property taxes have gone up nearly every year since I bought my house in 1986. I think any saving will be only temporary and the relentless tax increases will continue—especially in light of the state’s budget deficit and the fiscal shenanigans of MPS.
Too, as Sean has mentioned, the sales tax is inherently regressive, no matter what is exempted.
Sean, about the regressive tax issue, as I’ve said before, nothing is more regressive than raising the bus fares by nearly 25%. Those in the lower brackets of income rely on mass transit more than any socio-economic group out there, and continually raising the amount of money they have to pay is the real travesty here.
On the flip side of that, increasing mobility with a better mass transit program opens up job opportunities for those folks by providing access to better jobs. That’s something I think we all agree would benefit the entire region and the residents of Milwaukee County.
Lastly, home ownership isn’t an exclusive right of the middle and upper class. Through a variety of programs, home ownership is a real possibility for many lower income families, and a $150 break on their property taxes would be a substantial savings for them as well as any other property owner in our County.
@smitty: if you choose to spend your consumer dollars in another County, that of course is your right. I guess my question is why aren’t you doing that now since Waukesha County has a lower sales tax than Milwaukee County?
Regarding your point about property taxes… they’re a combination of many different things. MPS, MATC, MMSD, County, City, etc… I can’t speak to the other taxing authorities of Milwaukee County, but with regard to the property tax that you pay for your share of the transit, culture/parks/recreation/EMS services, it would go down.
Let me repeat that. Your Milwaukee County property tax levy WOULD GO DOWN.
It’s well past time that we joined the rest of the major American metropolitan areas in taking transit off our property taxes and putting that service onto a sales tax that is indexed to inflation so we wouldn’t be forced to deal with an ever increasing property tax bill.
The question that the right will not answer is: Can we afford not to do the tax increase?
For further information: http://whallah.blogspot.com/2008/10/who-are-you-going-to-believe.html
Dan and crapper,
Either way I’ve got nothing to look forward to other than more taxes—city, county and state. A rather bleak prospect for a retiree. One day, and perhaps not to far in the future, I’m going to have to make a major decision regarding my life in this state.
BTW, I live equidistant from Mayfair and Brookfield Square but I like the former better. Still, if I can save a few dollars, and gasoline remains inexpensive, who knows?
The first question STILL needs to be answered before I can even think of supporting this increase….how do I know that this property tax relief will be an ongoing “advantage” and not a repeat of 1991?? As for my second issue regarding this tax – regression – Sales taxes affect EVERYONE, especially poor people. Where the increase in transit rates affects about 8% of the metro population. As for home ownership, I agree with you. It is not just for middle and high income people, but the VAST majority of poor people (the ones hit the hardest by regressive taxes) don’t own homes, they rent. And I know you pay attention to the economy, so you know that there’s not too many mortgages being handed out, so the ability for anyone, much less the poor, to purchase homes is severely limited.
The real travesty is we are looking to add another tax to an area that is already taxed too much. You will tell me that my taxes will go down, but you can’t tell me if that is permanent. There are politicians (Lena Taylor for example) that think that once a tax is in place, whatever the reason, it’s there to stay (stadium tax) and can be used for whatever THEY feel is necessary. The worst part about that is this is not new for Milwaukee. This ideology of tax and spend puts this area at a distinct disadvantage. Not because we don’t have alternative mass transit options, but because we feel like driving businesses away with tax after tax. Wisconsin consistently ranks as one of the most heavily taxed states for both business and citizens, and now we’re talking about another tax that people are going to have to pay attention to, and ensure doesn’t get sucked into the Milwaukee bureaucracy, which it most certainly will. The worst part is ten to fifteen years down the road people will be asking themselves, “how did that happen?”
Sean,
How long would expect taxes to stay down? Regardless of how much everything else in the world going up, you expect your taxes to never go up again?
But while you squabble about an extra ten or twenty dollars, what do you think would happen with an unemployment rate in double digits, or with supllies drying up because the workers can’t get to their jobs?
Capper,
If what you are saying is true, regarding the increase in my sales tax, I should see a savings every year. By the logic I am being given, more tax money, means better parks, better transit, and availability of jobs, stimulating our economy thus creating more sales tax revenue, and more savings to the property tax payer. The problem is that logic won’t come to fruition, my taxes will go up, and all we’ve done (by adding this sales tax) is add another 1% to an already over-taxed region/state.
As for costs going up, I agree. Salt is going to be more expensive. Gas is still too high. Raw material costs are at best stagnant. The kicker is businesses don’t have the luxury of artificially creating revenue. You know what they have to do? Look at EVERY single cost in their company (Cost of goods sold, raises, matching 401k contributions, insurance coverage, pensions, etc) and look to maximize those costs. I guarantee you, government doesn’t do that. How can I guarantee that? Easy; city, county, state, and federal employees have the absolute Lexus/Cadillac/top-of-the-line benefits, and are very rarely, if ever touched. That’s not the real world, that’s the government world (which most of us do not live in). That’s one, quick example of why I don’t expect my taxes to go up and in fact should go down. The problem is, looking hard at those types of costs will never happen, so I need to squabble about that “extra 10 or 20 dollars”. As for unemployment going into the double digits, I’m glad you care about that, because until we make this state more business friendly (by REDUCING taxes, and regulation on business)that stat may, unfortunately, come true.
crapper,
I always expect taxes in Wisconsin to go up. I’ve lived here for twenty-two years and they’ve never gone down; I don’t expect that bleak fact will ever change.
So, yes, I’ll squabble about every extra ten and twenty dollars I have to pay. It’s my money, not yours, WEAC’s or bus riders’. I live on a pension, yet I have to pay property taxes, sales taxes, state income taxes, state excise taxes. city utilities fees and it’s never enough for people like you.
Dan,
I live in Milwaukee County and work in Waukesha County. I already shop in WC due to convenience. It will take no extra effort to shop there to save money. People are mobile and will go where they want to go to do what they want to do. To not recognize that Tosans will go to Brookfield and North Shore folks will go to Mequon and NW Milw folks will go to the Falls or G-Town to hit Kohls, Target, Walmart, Best Buy and all the other shopping mainstays is simply not accepting reality.
How long will the property taxes stay down?
Please point out any legislation passed by the county board to provide for this relief.
Please point out any legislation by the county board to maintain the relief….if it comes true.
Why should we trust the same board that piddled away millions on bad pension schemes to implement anything helpful to the taxpayer?
Smitty (and please note that I will refrain from the juvenile name calling),
How long do you think that it will take you to go through that $10 or $20 bucks in a depressed local economy. What your arguing is like saying it would be better to get pneumonia than to get the immunization. Simply mind boggling in its short-sightedness.
Capper,
Why don’t you answer the myriad of other questions posed in these comments instead of concentrating on the $10-$20 argument? What’s mind boggling is that you, Dan, and liberals in this area are so quick to institute a new tax without ever looking at all of the options available.
I believe our city, county, state, and federal governments can be much more efficient and still supply us with the necessary service(s)(thereby saving the taxpayers money). IF the government ever decides to seriously look at all of their costs and do something about it, I will take a serious look at voting/supporting a tax increase. Until then, I will question and challenge those that wish to take more money out of my pocket.
“IF the government ever decides to seriously look at all of their costs and do something about it”?
Sean, we have over $300 million in deferred maintenance to our parks system, roads and bridges that have seen their funding cut, fewer transit routes while rates have gone up, fewer fire fighters and dangerous roads in the winter.
Conservatives have been saying for almost a decade now to “Cut the fat”, and we have. There’s no more fat left to cut. I want my streets plowed and salted this winter.
Saying we haven’t had to cut services or costs is ridiculous. It’s what we’ve been doing for the last 10 years.
Dan, I said ALL of their costs…..the fact that they keep cutting the same costs is stupid and ineffective. I am not saying cut where there is no fat. You cite parks, roads, transit, and firefighters. What I don’t see is the costs associated with pension plans, benefits, and all of the other costs that every person and company needs to look at not only in hard economic times, but ALL of the time (especially when it comes from tax payers – since we don’t have a real say in what the government can take out of my wallet). BTW I never said the county hasn’t cut services or costs…..
Capper (I’m being nice too)
Your arguement makes no sense whatsoever. How long will it take me to go through that extra $10 or $20? As long as its mine to spend, it can take quite while. Hell, I might even decide to invest it it.