Leave it to the #1 Republican mud slinger and dirty politician to smear Democrats veterans for ‘cutting and running’:
“Like too many Democrats it strikes me they are ready to give the green light to go to war, but when it gets tough, they fall back of that party’s old platform of cutting and running. They may be with you for the first few bullets but they won’t be there for the last tough battles” – Karl Rove Jun 13 2006
Of course, this is why American citizens are sick and tired of politicians.
People like Karl Rove – who receieved deferment after deferment during Vietnam, who works for a man who’s military service during Vietnam is questionable, who works with a Vice President who received more than 5 deferments during Vietnam – question the service records and honor of men like Max Cleland, John Murtha, and John Kerry – all of whom served in Vietnam with valor and distinction and are Democrats.
I live in the Washington Heights neighborhood of Milwaukee, WI with my wife Jen, our daughter Emerson, and sons Carter and Colton.
Murtha is a despicable human being.
Well if wanting a plan to get out of Iraq and bring our troops home is your only qualifier for someone being ‘despicable’, then rock on.
So, you think saying our troops killed innocent civilians “in cold blood” despite the fact he has no information as to what actually happened is OK? That is calling for a plan to get out of Iraq? THAT is trying to get our troops home!? Get real. The guy is a friggin’ joke, except it’s not funny because what he says is dangerous and gets our troops killed – that is why he is a despicable human being.
No information? Where the heck have you been? I’m not saying one way or the other, but what the media reports of the last few weeks, along with interviews by people who were there seem to suggest is that there was a breakdown of discipline in Hiditha, and possibly a cover up by those in command. That’s just what the media is reporting.
You don’t think someone with the connections in the Pentagon that John Murtha has or his place as ranking member of the Defense subcomittee for Appropriations gives him a better insight or more information about what happened than you have?
It’s been a long time since I’ve heard the ‘American troops are getting killed because of Democrats’ line. Seriously, that’s what’s despicable here. The willingness to fling blame at everyone and everything besides those who really deserve it.
But George Bush is staying the course, right? He’s winning the battles in Iraq and singlehandedly preventing the Democrats from really screwing Iraq up. Just keep repeating it to yourself.
I say “no information” because the investigation is well … um .. not done. Maybe I should have said, “incomplete information”, but that’s probably splitting hairs. I know what the media is reporting and you are correct, there is a possible cover up and possible breakdown and possible this and that. My problem with his statement is that he said “cold blooded” murder of civilians. We do not know what actually happened yet. Until we do, I’m giving our soldiers the benefit of the doubt.
I agree, though, Murhta has access to more information than you or I – why wouldn’t he?!?!
About the Democrats killing or whatever … What I said was that a line like, ‘US soldiers killed Iraqi citizens in “cold blood”‘ gets American troops killed. That was a line by Murtha, whom I called despicable. I didn’t say “Democrats”, but so please don’t substitute some sort of different argument. To the point, statements such as the line uttered by Murtha are used as propoganda by “the enemy” and actually DO get servicemen and servicewomen killed.
I still stick by my actual comment, which is Murtha is a despicable human being. I’m not sure why you are interjecting comments about Bush and Democrats.
Did he really say “Okinawa”?!? LOL
Wow. It’s John Murtha that’s gotten 2500 US soldiers killed then in your opinion.
Your whole argument is just shy of the ‘Criticizing our President during war time only emboldens the enemy’ line of BS.
When did I say Murtha killed 2500 servicemen and servicewomen?! Holy cow .. take a deep breath.
Well is he killing American soldiers or not because of what he says? It sounds silly when I say it, doesn’t it?
OMG dude.
Agreed. It does sound silly… Anyways.
Here’s what sounds silly – your argument that Murtha somehow took a gun and physically killed the soldiers himself. Dan – you may not understnad this, but comments like the ones Murtha makes actually embolden the enemy, who then kill our soldiers. Murtha gives the enemy fodder to use when recruiting and a boost of morale when hearing such comments and deflate the morale of our troops. It’s not BS – talk to the soldiers when they return from Iraq – it’s useful when trying to understand the war.
Oh yeah … Okinawa?!
You know what ‘emboldens’ the enemy and makes them want to strike out at our soldiers? Crap like this. Idiotic statements like ‘bring em on’. Torture and sexual degredation of prisoners. The killing of innocent civilians.
People who speak out against the war and the crimes committed during it aren’t the enemy and they aren’t the ones responsible for the loss of US troops, and it’s about time that you understand that. I just can’t figure out why you would rather blame someone like John Murtha, a relative unknown to the rest of the world, for the deaths of American troops. John Murtha isn’t ‘despicable’, your flinging blame on him is.
One question: if American’s are against this war – as they are in overwhelming numbers – does THAT ‘embolden’ the enemy as well?
Nevermind .. just keep believing what you want to. I on the other hand will continue to read differing opinions and listen to other viewpoints.
You do not even read what I post or fail to understand the point.
So are American citizens who are against the war ‘emboldening’ insurgents or not in Iraq? I’m not only reading what you’re writing, I’m also responding to it and asking questions back to you, which you haven’t answered one of yet.
You’re so far off topic it’s mind boggling.
This from someone who responds to a post about Karl Rove flinging mud at decorated Democrats with a comment about how one of those decorated Democrats is a ‘despicable human being’.
That is what we’re talking about, isn’t it? And how you believe that he is responsible for the deaths of US soldiers because he’s speaking out against the killing of innocent civilians.
No that’s not what we’re talking about … nevermind.
Also – did you see the aritlce I linked to in one of the other comment sections dealing with the CIO for the state of Wisconsin? Wondering if you saw the article.
“…what he says is dangerous and gets our troops killed”
Bullshit. Do you honestly think the seeds of terrorism are sewn by the likes of John Murtha? You know what ACTUALLY helps breed terrorism? U.S. soldiers killing Iraqi citizens in cold blood! Are those who express concern about these instances accusing the entire U.S. military of such behavior? Of course not, and anyone with half a brain knows it.
My favorite part of this thread was when Yeah Boy essentially said Dan “fails to understand his point”. What point was so difficult to understand about your Murtha commentary, Yeah Boy? Let’s take another look, shall we?
“…what he says is dangerous and gets our troops killed”
One more time, if you don’t mind:
“…what he says is dangerous and gets our troops killed”
Followed, of course, by this little bit of “revisionist history”:
“When did I say Murtha killed 2500 servicemen and servicewomen?!”
Guess what, Yeah Boy? You’re right. You didn’t say it – you IMPLIED as much. It’s the same “not-so-plausible deniability” state of mind that allows the Bush administration to say, “We never actually said Hussein was responsible for 9/11″. No, they didn’t say it in so many words, but they sure as hell did a magnificent job of morphing Hussein and al-Qaeda into one evil entity in an effort to justify their actions to the portion (70% at one point!) of the American public that was willing to listen. Did you literally say Murtha killed 2,500 soldiers? Nope. Did you, however, essentially say his comments ultimately cost American lives? Damn straight you did.
I’ll leave it at this: his comments are dangerous and irresponsible and he is despicable.
Les – I didn’t say Murtha got 2500 soldiers killed nor did I say that Murtha took up arms and shot any of our soldiers. Do his comments ultimately cost American lives? Absolutely – that’s exactly what I am trying to say.
Do you honestly think the seeds of terrorism are sewn by the likes of John Murtha?
No, but comments that make our soldiers look like cold blooded killers don’t help.
You know what ACTUALLY helps breed terrorism? U.S. soldiers killing Iraqi citizens in cold blood!
Please tell me you didn’t imply that our soldiers killed civilians in cold blood.
Are those who express concern about these instances accusing the entire U.S. military of such behavior?
No, but they cast a dark cloud over our entire military to the Iraqi people (for example).
What point was so difficult to understand about your Murtha commentary, Yeah Boy?
I said Murtha was despicable, Dan brought up George Bush and something about the Democrats. He got off topic pretty quickly so I said he didn’t understand what I was trying to say.
Bullshit … Damn straight …
Take it easy dude.
Dan –
One question: if American’s are against this war – as they are in overwhelming numbers – does THAT ‘embolden’ the enemy as well?
Overwhelming numbers? You’ll have to show me that poll, I guess. As for your question – it’s complex, but in a short answer, yes it can embolden the enemy. Bin Laden himself said in 1993 that he thought the US would be like the Russians (vicious, tenacious), but found out (in part due to John Murtha, ironically) that given a little negative news the American public would pressure a president to retreat – Bin Laden was surprised by this and even went to far as to call the US a “paper tiger”. So,
This from someone who responds to a post about Karl Rove flinging mud at decorated Democrats with a comment about how one of those decorated Democrats is a ‘despicable human being’.
LOL – you do have a point. I defend myself in that you at least mentioned Murtha in your post. You brought up the Dems and GWB all by yourself. So, I think I get a pass on this one.
That is what we’re talking about, isn’t it? And how you believe that he is responsible for the deaths of US soldiers because he’s speaking out against the killing of innocent civilians.
No no no. What I am saying is that he has said our troops are guilty without the necessary information. THAT is what I have a problem with. If our troops are guilty, then I would have no problem with Murtha’s statement, but I am going to support our troops and give them the benefit of the doubt.
I think I answered all of your questions. Hopefully that will help tone down the emotion here – jeepers.
“I didn’t say Murtha got 2500 soldiers killed nor did I say that Murtha took up arms and shot any of our soldiers.”
I know you didn’t. I acknowledged as much. Reread my comment.
“Please tell me you didn’t imply that our soldiers killed civilians in cold blood.”
Which is worse, Yeah Boy? Soldiers killing people in cold blood, or someone TALKING about soldiers killing people in cold blood?
Which is worse, Yeah Boy? Soldiers killing people in cold blood, or someone TALKING about soldiers killing people in cold blood?
Insinuating OUR soldiers killed people in cold blood without having complete information is worse.
Really? That’s worse than the actual act itself?
Yes. Come on – seriously .. what kind of question is that?
I honestly can’t tell – was the “Yes” response intended to be sarcastic?
Don’t be a dink.
First this:
“Insinuating OUR soldiers killed people in cold blood without having complete information is worse.”
Then this:
“Yes.”
Then this:
“Don’t be a dink.”
How about you just give me a freakin’ straight answer, Yeah Boy? Which is worse – an act of brutality or talking about said act without complete information, as you’re suggesting?
Speaking of “incomplete information”…
Where was the righteous indignation when the administration was making its push for war – WAR! – based on “incomplete information”? Where were you when those of us who said “let’s get some better intel first” were being branded as anti-Americans by the right wing nutjobs?
Les – chill out. Seriously.
I see where Les is coming from and agree with him for the most part. I think he is chilled out, and even if he does want to get a little unchilled, so what? It’s an emotional subject and we all have strong beliefs on it.
One a related note, 2 soldiers have been charged in a seperate incident involving the murder of an innocent civilian.
One other thing, which I’ll probably make a new post for later. If the Iraqi goverment calls for a timetable for the withdrawl of US troops, are they ‘cutting and running’ too? And would it all the sudden be OK for troop level judgements not to be made by ‘the commanders on the ground’ in the eyes of Pres. Bush?
The Iraqi’s will be hard pressed to ever get all of the US troops out of their country. Bush wants permanent US bases there. They will be useful for threatening the Iraqi government from not doing what the US wants and can be used to threaten Iran as well.
Murtha is a degenerate for saying the troops killed civilians in “cold blood” PRIOR to the investigation being completed. It was dangerous and irresponsible.
He’s gone from ‘despicable’ to ‘degenerate’ then… nice.
If this investigation completes and the soldiers did kill innocent civilians ‘in cold blood’ can I assume you’ll change your opinion? Somehow I doubt it..
can I assume you’ll change your opinion? Somehow I doubt it..
How does that change anything?! He still made the comments PRIOR to the investigation being completed!! I don’t see how you think this is an ok thing to do.
So the real problem is him simply saying anything about what happened, even if it does prove to be true.
The real criminal here is the one who’s calling attention to the illegal actions, not the people responsible for the illegal actions to begin with.
This sounds familiar.
Dan – read this closely … the investigation as to what happened in Haditha is NOT COMPLETE. You are saying they have committed something illegal, but WE DON’T KNOW YET. That’s my ENTIRE problem with Murtha’s comments. Quit proclaiming that our soliders, OUR SOLDIERS, are guilty already.
“He still made the comments PRIOR to the investigation being completed!! I don’t see how you think this is an ok thing to do.” – Me two posts up.
How does me saying “even if it does prove to be true” get turned into you saying I’m guilty of “proclaiming that our soldiers.. are guilty”?
I mean, really, that’s almost as much of a stretch as Karl Rove calling into question the integrity of Democrats who served with distinction during Vietnam.
Really though. “even if it does prove to be true” somehow equates to “proclaiming our soldiers are guilty” in your mind. You’re a logical person, and I just can’t get where you’re pulling that out of.
The real criminal here is STILL the one’s who are calling attention to the illegal actions, not the people responsible for the illegal actions to begin with.
We are not communicating on this post at all … we are both misinterpretting what the other is saying.
I guess we can just drop it and we’ll revisit it some other time I’m sure. :D