New Phoenix Light Rail System Exceeding Ridership Projections
I’m so old I can remember when the Phoenix light rail system was held up by anti-rail zealots as a prime example of how light rail in a city designed for cars would be a massive, monumental and cataclysmic failure.
Guess not.
So much for the notion of light rail’s novelty wearing off.
The average passenger count for weekdays in February, the second month of the cross-Valley line’s revenue operations, jumped 15 percent from January and was well over projections for the first year.
Almost 35,300 people rode trains on the average weekday, Metro announced Thursday. That figure exceeded Metro’s target of 26,000 by more than one-third. – MSNBC
Not only is their new light rail system – which I should point out, is located in an area that’s hardly considered “liberal” – meeting expectations, it’s exceeding them.
I also recall reading a lot about how anti-rail conservatives in Arizona were predicting nothing but doom and gloom for their “choo-choo train” and that no one would ride it even if it was ever completed. They were wrong again.
It’s the same thing we’ve been hearing from the same types of people here in Milwaukee. I believe that like Phoenix, a new commuter rail or streetcar option in Milwaukee will be met with much the same success as Phoenix.
And everywhere else it’s been deployed for that matter.
I’ve been pointing out the success stories of commuter and light rail in city after city for almost a year now and not once during that time have I heard of, nor has anyone sent me (which believe me, they would) the counters to those stories during that time. Just lots of, “Well it sure has heck won’t work here!” speculation and scare tactics.
Good job Phoenix, and congratulations on your success.
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Dan,
It’s not the use or even the increased use of light rail or any other increase in mass transit that I oppose. It’s the cost per rider, and the subsidies to mass transit that I oppose. If Milwaukee were to expand its mass transit options to light rail, high speed rail, buses (small and large), or some hybrid of all of these, would there be riders???? Of course. The question is how do we pay the cost to build, how much does it cost to maintain, and how and who pays for all of this?!?!? The answer to “how do we pay to build “it”?” is being answered (somewhat) by some of the stimulus package, but even that money isn’t going to cover the whole bill. The answer to how much it’s going to cost to maintain?!?!? That’s a very good question, and one that I’ve posed in my comments many times, with NO answer whatsoever. The answer is, A LOT!!!! The final and most important question, “how and who’s going to pay for this?” Well we know the answer, it’s increased taxes on the citizens of Milwaukee, Racine, Kenosha, Ozaukee, Washington, and probably others. Really? We need to increase our taxes???
I have an idea. Let’s start by taking a look at what I get in terms of health insurance, vacation, pay, retirement benefits, etc, etc, and compare that to what government employees get (for starters) and see if the “packages” match. Never mind, I know that my “benefits package” won’t come close to those with government jobs. Just think if we could analyze those costs and get them more in line with the private sector, how much government(s) could save. We could then take a look at the other worthless projects (as you’ve so diligently resourced) and see where the government is wasting MORE money. After we did that, (trimmed the fat, re-allocated the money to where it needs to go, and reduce our taxes), I could begin to support adding costs to our tax roll for things like mass transit and the like. Until then, everyone (especially government officials) needs to keep their nose to the cost grindstone and look to trim wasteful spending before even thinking about increasing costs.
Let’s see, Phoenix has a population of 1,552,259 and that doesn’t even count the suburbs and they only get 35,300 riders a day???? and this called success. That doesn’t even account for those ride the choo choo round trip, so the actual number of riders is probably around 20,000.
But lt’s use the 35,300 number. That means only 2% of the City of Phoenix residents are using the train, again not including the suburbs. Let’s now use Maricopa county’s population of 3,880,181. That means less than 1% of the population is using the choo choo in Maricopa County. And you call that success? What is definition of failure? Oh, that’s right, no such thing as failure when it comes choo choo trains. For those living in the real world, this constitutes a total and complete failure.
I might add, that is using the same figures above, if 2% rode the train in the City of Milwaukee or Milwaukee County, only 12,043 will ride the choo choo a day or 500 people an hour, 24 hours a day. and ou want to spend hundreds of millions of dollars for 12,000 people? Pathetic.
Phoenix isn’t the “real world” then? 35,000 people a day doing something, anything, consistently is a huge number and shouldn’t be downplayed. It’s also important to compare apples to apples here when throwing around numbers like you are since the Phoenix system is a light rail system and we’re in Milwaukee talking about streetcars for downtown.
It’s also important to realize that in Phoenix, that’s 35 thousand people a day in just the second month. Clearly, there’s demand for it.
Your larger point seems to be the continuation of the ideology that “If I don’t benefit from it, I shouldn’t have to pay for it”, which we’ve discussed several times and I disagree with on a fundamental level.
No, Dan, it is a failure by any objective standards. 35,000 is not an exactly a demand out of almost 4 million people. That’s pathetic. That’s probably less than the number of people who shop at Wal Mart or McDonalds in the Phoenix area. That’s usually less than attend a Arizona Diamond baseball game, that’s about 1/2 that attend the Phoenix Cardinal football games.
Further, people are trying out something new. You don’t honestly think ridership will continue at 35,000, do you. if so, you are living in a fantasy world.
One more thing, When they opened the light rail up, it was during the cool season in Phoenix. Wait until July-Sept. when the temperature gets into the 115-120 range. You think they will keep those numbers up. Of course not, who wants to be waiting outside in 115 degree weather waiting for the choo choo. About the same number of people who will wait outside in -25 degree temperature with the windchill.
One of the ironies of Phoenix is that so many people with respiratory problems moved there because of the desert air; but with that many people driving, the air became smoggy and more difficult to breathe. Light rail obviously reduces those emissions in the “urban heat island,” which to me is success.
You know Dan H, a quick perusal of your posts – with their layers of snarky condescension, wildly speculative abuse of “statistics” and partisan rancor – reveals clearly that you know absolutely NOTHING about transportation issues or regional planning. If Dan installed a “Weasel Word Filter” on his blog, your posts would completely disappear.
DanH: Because people stop riding the bus when it gets cold. Moving on….
River Otter: that’s a good point, and one I hadn’t thought of previously.
Oh, gee David, what a brillant post. I am trembling in my shoes with your brillant comeback. to bad you can’t come back with anything to counteract my comments on what a dismal failure is in Phoenix. Please enlighten us with what you know about transportation so I can be less snarky.
Dan C., thank you for proving my point. People will wait for a bus that comes every 15 minutes to a half hour. I’m pretty sure the trains will not be running that often.
Dan H: So you’re a transportation expert? Could have fooled me, based on your asinine rhetoric.
By all means, please prove me wrong and post your credentials for making such bold claims. For the record, I don’t accept “Because Charlie Sykes says so” as credentials.
The sarcasm doesn’t always translate, so let me reaffirm what I was getting at. Cold weather doesn’t keep people from using the bus in Milwaukee, especially when you understand that mass transit in Milwaukee is the only means of getting to work for a significant number of people. I don’t recall the exact numbers, but it was more than a third.
So the weather has very little to do with ridership, especially in more modern systems hooked up to GPS systems linked with curbside times that let you know how far away the next car/bus is.
Your opinion that it’s a “dismal failure” in Phoenix is hard to come back to, just like any opinion is. You have an opinion, and I believe you’re wrong. So while I appreciate the commentary, it takes more than “Because I said so” at times.
“By all means, please prove me wrong” prove you wrong? You haven’t said anything yet. How can I prove you wrong, then?
And Dan, I agree with you that we only have opinions. my only question would be this: How would describe a failure in a transit system?
There’s no right answer when the person asking that question doesn’t believe mass transit can be successful.
And people still ride the bus when it’s cold.
When did I say mass transit is bad? Here in Vegas, I think we have a very good transit system. The fares are cheap, it is safe, for the most part, the busses run on time and there a lot of routes. Just because one does not believe in the trains does not mean I find all mass transit bad. It is a needed service while the trains are not a eeded service- it is a luxury item that benefits few people and it is expensive to build and run.
This argument is filling up my inbox.
Is there an unbiased site I can use to look up actual data about mass transit costs and ridership? I would like to be more informed. At that Milwaukee County Parks, Energy, and Environment Committee meeting that I attended, the WIS DOT showed the massive freeway widening that will occur soon (Zoo Interchange, Dan Cody) and two of the supervisors (Larson and Lipscomb, if you want to write to them) were questioning why light rail was not being considered- why the project was not being designed to be able to easily add it later.
I have ridden the Metro from Mesa to downtown Phoenix and it is a very smooth ride. You can park your car in Mesa and take the Metro to downtown Phoenix to go to a baseball game and not have to worry about parking costs or driving downtown. I am not a fan of raising taxes, but if they are raised at all it might as well be for something useful. And it doesn`t all have to go toward light rail but also busses.
Thanks for the feedback Rick, good to hear.
Heading to Phoenix next month…..might get a chance to experience their mass transit and get back to you with my “opinions” :)
Cool Sean, looking forward to hearing about it!
I live in Phoenix and the thing is a joke. It doesn’t extend to areas where riders might actually be able to use it. Every time I drive by a station, the only thing there are some roaches and dust, except on Baseball night, and then it’s used as a novelty to shuttle people out to where they parked their cars so they can drive home.
Your account clearly explains the high ridership numbers before baseball season began.