Dan Cody

Have you even read Van Hollen’s advisory opinion? I’m guessing not given how you’ve so completely misrepresented it. You must not have even read the J/S article because it clearly states:

“Statutes that require guns to be cased when transported in vehicles and those that prohibit guns in taverns, schools and public buildings will be enforced, according to Van Hollen’s advisory.”

I too have a lot of respect for Chief Flynn but his statements on this issue have me questioning his judgment. A law-abiding citizen who is going about his daily business without bothering anyone should not be subjected to being tackled to the ground by the police merely for exercising a lawful and constitutionally protected right in a peaceful manner.

I agree with Flynn on this. If an officer sees someone with an gun in plain sight, he should stop them and that means a felony type stop. Find out if the person is legally holding the gun. If they are, thank them for their time and move on. If they are not, then go after them.

Is it legal to carry a weapon in WI? If so, I would think the police would have some lawsuits on their hands if they follow the chief’s advice of attacking people without any probable cause (following the law is not probable cause, obviously).

It is and always has been legal to carry a firearm openly in Wisconsin. The fact that nobody actually does it is lost on those that are more worried about the lawful carry then the unlawful (concealed) carry of firearms. I guess what you can’t see can’t hurt you……………..

Criminals usually don’t carry their guns openly so I’d wager that the majority of people attacked and thrown to the ground by the Milwaukee police would, in fact, be honest, law abiding people. Being thanked by the police for their time would wouldn’t suffice; there will be lawsuits. A reasonable concealed carry law would solve the problem.

It’s not the police’s job to make the law. Harassing people who aren’t doing anything illegal isn’t legal and following this course could end up costing the city a lot of money by ending up on the wrong side of a lawsuit.
This is on par with Racine deciding they didn’t like rave parties and went out of their way to harass participants with illegal searches and bogus charges.

Dan – you are saying that the police should break teh law and seize open carriers without reasonable suspicion of any crime going on??

besides the fact that this conduct by police is illegal and actionable for damages, let’s say they did find evidence of an open carrier who is a prohibited person – then all the evidence of this would be suppressed as a violation of the Fourth Amendment and the bad guy would get away.

Come on, let’s have some common sense – people open carry in 44 states and usually need no pemrit – Wisconsin is just like the rest of the USA.

“Harassing people who aren’t doing anything illegal isn’t legal and following this course could end up costing the city a lot of money by ending up on the wrong side of a lawsuit.”

Attempting assault, battery and theft against armed citizens could end up costing the city a few officers’ lives.

Good news – a new online petition is up and running demanding repeal of the car and school zone open carry bans in Wisconin – go to http://www.petitiononline.com/wi1848oc/petition.html, sign up, pass it on, and re-post to other blogs and newspaper comment sections.

A radio add fundraising effort called “Operation CarryLand” is up and running too, go to http://www.opencarry.org/carryland.html and give today!

Dan Cody: as there is no gun registration in Wisconsin, nor the vast majority of states, there is no reason for police check to see if guns are registered. If a police officer seizes any person, absent reasonable suspicion of actual crime, then any evidenceo btained, e.g., prior felony statuts, will be suppressed as a violation of the Fourth Amendment. Gun owners have a privacy interest in the serial numbers of their guns anyway, so police cannot demand to see them. See Arizona v. Hicks (suppressing serial number search evidence where officers touched eprsonal proerty to see serial number).

Now that we have established that bad guys will get off the hook when police break the law and detain open carriers for no reason, let’s remember that good guys are not going to let cities off the hook for damages – civil suits for unlawful police seizures of citizens and guns are easy to bring.

Again, there is no more legal justification to “stop” open carriers and seize guns than their is to “stop” cell phone carriers to check their sim cards.

Dan, if the police “stop” you non-consensually, that is called a “seizure.” That’s unlawful unless the police have reasonable suspicion of a crime because the Fourth Amendment guards against unreasonable searches and **seizures.**

What’s this about “after they’re done with you . . .” – talk about intimidation, dude.

Mike, for a search and seizure to be unlawful there must be a reasonable expectation of privacy by that person. Being in public with a firearm on your hip garners no such expectation of privacy, to the court anyway, in so far as to stop police the ability to question the person about the firearm.

Ryne Schnell – you are conflating the general reasonableness standard from the Katz (concurring opinion) to “search” somebody with the standrd to seize somebody – that standard is set forth in Terry v. Ohio which forbids even temporary investigative stops absent “reasonable articulable suspicion” of crime afoot.

See also Florida v. JL (stop of person reported to be carrying a gun violated the Fourth Amendment and suppressed evidence supporting charge of unlawful concealed carry).

Dan, my parents are from Milwaukee – I used to go visit my grandparents there on, was it Wilbur Ave??

I live now in Northern Virginia – very urbanized part of the greater DC Metro area – this is the heart of the open carry movement where it arguably started in 2004 at a Champps restaurant – google up open carry and Champps and the Washington Post hysteria that frankly got us growing. Open carry is ongoing and becoming very accepted in all kinds of urban areas, including Richmond, Pittsburg, Seattle, etc. Police and press are getting so used to it that it is not barely newsworthy any more and 911 dispatchers conduct triage if they receive calls and remind callers that OC is legal so they need more that “man with a gun in holster while shopping with family” to send police to investigate.

And yes in VA PA NH and many other places, open carriers do attend public meetings and speak while open carrying especially if a gun bill or issue is under consideration. And I am sure that my gun has always remained in my holster at such meetings and never came “out.”

For more info, check out the ABC Nightline News video at OpenCarry.org, scroll down right side (just under June 25, 2008 and watch the Utube version as it has the “night before Heller opinion” intro (very cool!).

And by the way, hope to see you at an open carry event some day :)

Dan, does putting a murder in jail stop his crime? If not, why do we do it?

Dan, re schools, the online petition asks for repeal of the 1000 ft. school **zones** not necessarily the ban on guns inside K-12 schools – most states have such bans inside schools, though many have an exception for carry permit holders (which WI does not issue) – it would be much harder to take down gun bans inside schools not held out to be open to the public generally on constitutional grounds, though on policy grounds, I believe that paretns and teachers etc. who have business at a school should not be arbitrarily barred from carrying guns there where they might be useful to defend the children against criminals who will ignore the “gan ban” anyway.

I saw what i think was a a 20/20 news video re college carry scenario and maybe that is what you are referring to – that piece involved a setup scenario where they trained students to fire handguns from an open cary postiion and then surprized them in a room where they were forced to fire from a concealed position under tight T-shiorts and 2 active shooters suddenly opened fire int eh room – a laughable “test.” Real life experiences of citizens going to others’ defense are very positive and heartening.

Dan Cody said, “That’s a great analogy and all, but you can’t kill people with a cell phone.”

Really? How about a cellphone and an SUV?

This is an issue where local control should reign. My wife practices in Augusta, WI where ATV’s are allowed on designated streets and horses are still tied to hitching posts in town (large Amish community). I can see where it would be okay for a local to open carry a gun around.

I can see in Milwaukee, where people seem to fear firearms (the same has been true in any large city I’ve lived in) a person carrying a gun into a public place could cause panic.

Nonetheless, the law is the law and the police have no business harassing people obeying the law. The answer is to change the law. I personally support concealed carry permits.