Why Are “Virtual Schools” Getting the Same Amount of Money as Other Schools?
A good question from Bruce Murphy of Milwaukee Magazine: why do “virtual schools” get the same amount of money per pupil that other “choice” schools get from the State? “Virtual schools” have no building to pay rent or a mortgage on and none of the normal expenses you’d expect from a more traditional school. In addition, since they have more students “per class” than traditional schools, they should need less staff – the largest single expense for any school – right?
Yet, they get $6,000 per student that’s enrolled. The average choice school gets $6,600. Why does it cost so much to educate students in a “virtual” environment, and where’s the extra money going?
We taxpayers pay nearly $6,000 per pupil for the 3,635 elementary and secondary students who attend virtual schools in Wisconsin. This is one of just 18 states that pay for students who take all of their courses online. That seems odd from several perspectives.
To begin with, why is it so expensive? The major cost at any school is personnel. But as a January 2009 story in Milwaukee Magazine reported, just 37 percent of tax money going to virtual schools is for teacher compensation, and that figure comes not from some outside analysis but from the coalition representing the virtual schools. The coalition claims its schools have a 50 to 1 student/teacher ratio, compared to 20 to 1 for a traditional school.
I question the priorities here. The state’s per-pupil payment is just over $6,600 per student for choice students in Milwaukee. These are mostly small schools, probably with smaller-sized classrooms. They are personnel heavy. I’ve questioned before why we spend so little on choice schools compared traditional public schools ($11,981 per pupil statewide), but the choice payment seems all the more absurd when compared to what we’re spending for online schools. – Bruce Murphy
I think the idea of “virtual schools” is interesting and should be explored and utilized by those who want to go that route. But in this case – and with any “choice” school – my main problem is the lack of accountability.
The answer of course is easy. There is little if any accountability with these “virtual schools”.
And that’s just the way they want it.
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The answer of course is easy. There is little if any accountability with these “virtual schools”.
And that’s just the way they want it.
Yes – the state is holding them to the same accountability that public schools have. None.
Well nice misdirection and a totally false statement. Glad to see you’re back to contributing again.
Well, it’s a fair question. What is that 6k being spent on. Of course, a much bigger fair question is ” Why can a choice school operate on $6600/year/student and produce twice the educational product that MPS does at $12,000/ year/student?”
Seems like I just read in TMJ today that only Detroit had lower math scores than Milwaukee. While I might wonder if we could save a tiny bit of money on virtual schools (and I do wonder), I question ever more if maybe, rather than concern ourselves overly with a successful system, we should delve far more deeply into the broken money pit of MPS that is sending Milwaukee’s kids out into the world without even basic tools for success.
Seems to me that the real misdirection is Mr. Murphy coming out with that rather weak inquiry just at the moment that we are looking to decide if MPS needs to be beheaded and replaced with something…anything else. That is where the real lack of accountability lies.
TFG, your first is a very complicated question. Obviously, it’s not just as easy as saying “X amount of money gets Y results” no matter which school district you’re in.
I should make it very clear that I am in no way a defender of MPS. I think the administration of MPS has done a terrible job and needs a complete overhaul.
That aside, one reason that the “average” cost per student is so high in MPS and so low in choice schools is special needs kids. The cost of provide special education is staggeringly expensive and one that helps drive up the average cost/student in MPS.
On the other hand, choice schools don’t have to accept special needs students (which helps raise their average test scores and lowers their cost).
Again, my question is why a virtual choice school gets as much money per student as a more traditional choice school when they don’t have anywhere near the expenses.
Not a misdirection – you compared school funding of public to virtual and then talked about accountability. I couldn’t be more on point! It’s a typical liberal response … ignore the message, attack the messenger.
Glad to see you’re back to contributing again.
Pfftt. I doubt that. You will continue to ignore comments and fail to actually THINK about what I am writing. You will defend your position without questioning it.
Righteous outrage aside for a moment, can you point out where’s the accountability in choice schools then? Public schools have to have their students test at a certain level or they lose funding, choice schools don’t.
Public schools have standardized tests and requirements for what it takes to move grade to grade. Choice schools don’t.
Public school teachers are required to be licensed by the State for the areas for which they teach. Choice schools don’t.
There are a lot of areas in which the public schools need work, but to throw out some complete garbage line like “public schools have no accountability” is either a complete lack of knowledge about requirements for public and choice schools or a disregard for the facts to make a tired ideological remark (Public schools! Accountability!) with no basis in reality, or both.
So please stow the outrage and “I JUST CAN’T BELIEVE YOU!! LIBERAL!” indignation and participate in the adult conversation or continue to throw verbal hand grenades, run away, and then proclaim that I’m the bad guy. Liberal! Hypocrite! Union! Socialist! Blah blah.
So maybe after reading the above comparisons between public and choice school accountability you’ll have a clearer understanding of why I said you’re making a totally false statement. Whatever you do though, can the petty victimization be put on hold?
Whatever you do though, can the petty victimization be put on hold?
Yes.
The Virtual Schools have to be responsible to the DPI in many areas.
For example, they have to be able to design IEPs for students of need. The curriculum is subjected to review by the DPI. The teachers have to be certified by the state.
Both public schools and virtual schools have requirements that need to be met by the state.
Where we disagree is accountability; where public schools have very little.
Righteous outrage aside for a moment, can you point out where’s the accountability in choice schools then?
Absolutely. The accountability lies in the ability to educate the children.
Public schools have to have their students test at a certain level or they lose funding, choice schools don’t.
Are you referring to “No Child Left Behind”?
Public schools have standardized tests and requirements for what it takes to move grade to grade. Choice schools don’t.
Virtual school students do, in fact, take the same standardized tests as public school students. Grade to grade is a different concept in non-traditional schools, Dan. For example, a Montessori has E1, E1, Alpha, Beta, etc. It’s a different concept and hard for someone who might have only known the public school way to grasp at first, but grade to grade is not applicable in the same way.
Public school teachers are required to be licensed by the State for the areas for which they teach. Choice schools don’t.
The teachers do have training they must complete and moreover the lesson plans are written by licensed, certified (by state of Wisconsin) teachers.
Licsensed instructors may develop the lesson plans, but that’s like saying it’s OK for an airline pilot to implement a flight plan developed by a licensed flight instructor and ignoring the fact the person flying the plane doesn’t have a license himself.
I work in a public school system (not MPS) and work with several charter/choice schools (although no virtual schools). There’s a reason they’re shut down with stunning regularity.
Despite what you want to say about being “accountable” they’re often poorly run and a drain on the system as a whole. The average life span of a new charter is under four years. Many of them are full of financial abuse (Where else can a principal drive a new Benz?) and low standards. And when they do close down (again, most in under four years) because they are held “accountable”, they simply wait a year and open up a new charter!
“Milwaukee School of Business” gets shut down and reopens with the same “charter” and staff as “Milwaukee Business School”. It’s unfortunate as a lot of kids and their parents get lured into the schools with the promises made by snake oil salesmen (the ones driving the Benzs).
My children attend a private school. They take all of the same tests that the MPS kids do. As for accountability; the same state laws that govern MPS apply to private school, but there is one additional level of accountability… the parents of the students. We have a very strong voice in the school. Nothing like that exists at MPS. I know. I have been there.
I will add, for the sake of argument, that I do not support choice in it’s current form. I would rather see some sort of direct tax credit to parent. That way kids enrolled through a “choice” program would remain anonymous. It would also allow choice schools to operate without having to cater to the choice program and thereby change some of the independence that results in private schools success in education.
Hm, and I thought that only happened to me. Well, I’m glad to see that I’m not a lone voice in the wilderness…
@Family Guy: You are just the most recent person attempting to discuss Dan’s opinion with him. Many have tried and given up. It will happen to you, I am guessing, as it has happened to so many before you.
Dan treats you the same he has treated anybody previously that has disagreed with his assertions.
Truly though, and I say this with very little snarkiness (is that a word??) – it is a very typical liberal response. Liberals fail to address the actual discussion and/or facts, but instead attack the messenger.
Right. And you blabbing on about “DAN” and LIBERALS! is totally not attacking the messenger. It’s frustrating to hear you go on like this, as you have for years, because I know you’re better than it.
At any rate, I have argued my position on a variety of issues here for years. I stand up for my principles and I’ve never gotten personal about it. I treat people with a lot more respect, frankly, than I get both on this weblog and in life. And that’s fine.
So you’re right, that’s how I’ve treated people for “years”. What a shame. But please refrain from claiming that I’m some big bad liberal out there shutting people down or treating them poorly, because I don’t. And at best, it’s disingenuous of you to claim that.
I’m not mad about it, but it’s what happens. I certainly don’t hold it against you personally. On your blog, it’s the standard MO. I am sure you have seen it, as I have. Think of how many people have stated the opposite opinion than you have presented. What happens to them? Look back through the archives and you will see that I am right. There is no honest debate, just you (and others) attacking them.
I have argued my position
You state your principles. It’s different. The issue I am raising is that you never question your principles. It’s essential to do that.
I respect you, you know that. As a matter of fact, I would defend you for passionately than most of the people that “agree” with you on this website.
Again, you are not reading what I am saying and reflecting that you might, in fact, be acting in such a manner. Instead you say “I am better than that” and I am “disingenuous”.
How is him calling you out about making a false statement “attacking the messenger”? You’re on the Internet you know…. get some thicker skin. Or at least engage in a debate about it…. If you’re just going to whine about being ‘attacked’ by the big bad liberal Cody, maybe you should change your nickname to “Wahhh Boy”.
Happy now?